.45/70 Cast Bullets

[bigblue]

I haven't done too much load testing with the Marlin 1895 45/70, so I'm still in the market for a good cast bullet. I'm leaning towards a really heavy hard cast for it's penetration abilities in short range brush hunting, that will still feed reliably. One that caught my eye is this.

A 525gr. wide long nose gas check bullet leaving the barrel at 1820FPS. They call it the "Pile Driver". beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21
Loading Data BTB-.45-525gWLNGC "Pile-Driver" in .45-70 Govt.
I feel a Tim Taylor grunt coming on!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All loads using Starline .45-70 Govt. brass, Winchester Large Rifle Primers, Cartridge Overall Length 2.557" .

Powder Charge Wt. Gr. Velocity 22" Bbl.
AA 2495 45.0 1520
IMR 4198 42.7 1612
IMR 3031 52.8 1683
H-4895 52.5 1820
RL-7 44.3 1705
IMR 4227 28.0 1443
2400 24.0 1346
H-322 41.0 1610

[DocHolladay]

Sounds like a real hard thumper on both sides of the bullet.

[bubbawitha4570]

What are you hunting with it in PA? For deer you are seriously over bulletted. For bear....you are just about. Go for it, and you wouldn't even need to go that high on the scale; it just punishes you more.



Do you do any casting, BB? That way I'd get a couple of different types of bullets, load them up, test penetration, and then buy the mould the one you liked came from. I was going to send you over to www.montanabulletworks.com/ but he doesn't have too much for the WFN types of bullets available. Just some of the RCBS/Lyman fare, not quite what you wanted.

Here's some more weights/types for you to perruse over www.castperformance.com/users/performance/catalog.html?Tp=2&Vl=1&Pos=20

I'm sure you did a search on hard cast bullets so I won't post my findings here, other than most places don't do the WFN types, they just have the standard flat round nose in 45/70 bullets.

[psycho]

bubbawitha4570 said:

What are you hunting with it in PA? For deer you are seriously over bulletted. For bear....you are just about. Go for it, and you wouldn't even need to go that high on the scale; it just punishes you more.

Is there really a such thing as over bulleted? I dont think so.

[bigblue]

I figure if the bigger bullets will penetrate critters better, they'll also penetrate brush better. Most of the area I hunt is pretty thick and I wouldn't doubt that a deer could be dropped hiding behind a tree with these bullets. Especially if that 1800FPS is achieveable as that load info lists. The original 45/70 BP loadings called for a 405gr. bullet, but the large metplat that these bullets offer must really cause some disruption. I've used 420gr. Cast Performance in the past and had good luck with them. I did find these also from Jae-Bok Young:
550 gr. WFNGC "CraterTM" Heavyweight -- Recommended for use only in New Marlin 1895.

One of the areas of reloading that I've never gotten involved with is casting bullets. I've had the urge from time to time, but never took the plunge.

[bubbawitha4570]

psycho said:

bubbawitha4570 said:

What are you hunting with it in PA? For deer you are seriously over bulletted. For bear....you are just about. Go for it, and you wouldn't even need to go that high on the scale; it just punishes you more.

Is there really a such thing as over bulleted? I dont think so.

This depends upon what you are looking for. If you are simply looking for enough boolit to kill something, then having something that will go through reinforced concrete is too much. I'm using extremism to get my point across, but I think you will get my point. Granted, some think that I'm over "boolitted" with a 300gr 458 HP, but when I think of guys looking to kill deer sized animals with 450+ hard cast boolits just so that they can have the satisfaction of knowing their boolits won't stop until the next county, then in my opinion, they are over bulletted. Hunting dangerous game is in another category altogether; when the game can, and will try to, get a piece of you as much as you are trying for them, then the best penetration/killing factors must be used.

My 300gr HPs get derision in the 45/70 circles with persons who believe in 458 Win Mag capabilities for these rifles. Those 300's are not the "thick" skinned variety the will hold up under heavy bone and such. But since no deer has ever come out living as a result of meeting one of my handloads (300gr Hornady/Remington HP, 38.0gr H4198), I'm inclined to say that this is enough boolit for me. And it doesn't seem to matter which bullet goes out the end of the barrel, both kill NOW when meeting the flesh of deer sized animals. I've never recovered any of these boolits, they go all the way through, and leave nothing to chance. I have recovered one 405 JFP boolit once, and that went through left rear quarter, guts, front right shoulder joint/bones, and stopped just short of completely cutting throught the hide on it's way out. BTW, this buck was still living and wanted to keep on going, had to put one more shot into him to kill, something that I've not had to do with the 300's (save one spine shot). This 405 shot was waaay back when I had just started out on the 45/70 thing, and thought that bigger and harder was much better/more weight + more velocity = better kills. Also wouldn't have any fear of taking that shot today, with my current loads; I've seen too much good in the current loads to fear the reactions of it.

I'm just saying that if for deer only, you don't need piledrivers unless you have a fear of being undergunned (or something of that nature). Now when going after bear, rhino, (possibly) pigs, ect., then getting something that won't quit is what you need. And I've seen footage of a farmer shooting pigs with a mini-14 (one shot, one kill) down in the southlands, so I am fairly comfortable in the 300 HP doing what I would need to do in that instance. Thinking of the energy difference between a .223 Rem and the 300gr. 45/70......I think I'm in good stand there.

[bubbawitha4570]

Also, I remember reading somewhere that someone did some testing on bullet deflection by "twigs" and "branches". They made up the branches with wood dowels, and started shooting into their makeup. They larger calibers didn't fare much better than the smaller ones. They stayed straighter for a short time, but they all veered off course due to the "branches". I'm not saying that the "brush buckers" aren't probably a bit better than the lighter calibers, but leaves and such are, at most, the only thing that I'm thinking of shooting through.

The tests included a couple of leverguns and some bolts, just don't ask me which and when. I just remember the findings generally.


For your information only. Don't take this as gospel, do some testing yourself.

[bigblue]

Bubba,
I remember reading about that test. It pretty much debunked the theory of brush buster calibers. I also remember that they showed that round nose bullets were deflected easier than pointed or flat nose. Of course brush hit earlier in flight deflected more than when hit closer to the target. I really don't remember them using cast bullets in that test, or comparing metplat area relationship to deflection. Believe me, I know the larger bullets will produce more recoil and that it doesn't take a 500+gr. bullet to drop a deer. I do believe that the larger the metplat area, the harder they hit and the quicker they kill. Of course accuracy is always the number one factor. I was using 350gr. RNSP Hornady's and they penetrated great, but they didn't smack the deer with the same authority I've seen from wide metplat cast bullets. The .430" 320gr. Cast Performance .44 mag. at 1600FPS, hit harder and with more disruption than those .458" 350gr. Hornady's at 2100FPS. In both cases the deer were dropped, but the wider metplat of that 320gr. bullet left no doubt that the deer would ever get back up.
Don

[bubbawitha4570]

Along the same lines as you BB, I'm looking at getting set up with a 300 or 350 ish mould to cast my hunting bullet with. And it will have that flat meplat when done. Just haven't been able to order one, as Mountain Molds is still not up and running. I'll wait, just impatiently.....

[bigblue]

I looked through the Midway catalog at the moulds available from Lee, Lyman, and Saeco and didn't see anything like the wide metplat bullets that I can buy. Someone must make those moulds. Which 300gr. JHP bullets have you been using? I see that Hornady, Remington, Speer, and Sierra all make them.

[bubbawitha4570]

Not to be a smartcheeks, but:

bubbawitha4570 said:

But since no deer has ever come out living as a result of meeting one of my handloads (300gr Hornady/Remington HP, 38.0gr H4198), I'm inclined to say that this is enough boolit for me. .

I know it was a long post, but they were in there.....

Now for the short answer: Hornady and Remington. I can't really tell too much difference between either one performance wise. You're mileage may vary.

they do look slightly differnt between the two (duh, they are DIFFERENT BRANDS :<that was for myself> but I think they both react the same in deer that I've shot.

[bigblue]

Bubba,
Some times I read right over something, DUH.
I just saw this load report at Huntingnut.com.

525gr. Beartooth Bullets using 40gr. of IMR 4198 for 1650FPS at a COL of 2.557" with a WLR primer.
Very hard-hitting and consistent load. The bullet is super hard at Brinell 21, and it penetrated an 8”oak like it was butter, leaving a gaping exit hole. TKO is 57, so I would say that this load would be adequate for any large/heavy/dangerous game (use your own discretion). A recoil pad is a must when shooting this load in a Guide Gun. Recoil energy is just over 50 fpe.

I'll bet that would add some excitement to your SBDB! Maybe with lead filled sap gloves to hold things down to a dull roar? Is it possible to get addicted to recoil?

[bigblue]

Bubba,
If your looking for 300gr. GC designs, Magma Engineering sells this mould that looks pretty good:

www.magmaengr.com

[bubbawitha4570]

That's the problem BB, I don't want any GC's on my boolits. For the majority of the shooting I do with cast boolits, the GC's aren't usable due to regulations of my club. And I don't feel the need for that much speed to require GC's.

Although that is a pretty boolit.....(wiping off drool....)

[bubbawitha4570]

Thanks for the link, never thought of looking there for molds.....even though I know they made them. (slapping myself on side of head)